Just Politics: Let us count the freedoms

For the season four kickoff episode, investigative journalist Katherine Stewart and NETWORK Executive Director Mary J. Novak discuss some of the freedoms on the line in 2024.

Freedom doesn’t simply mean freedom from things that restrict our lives. It also means the freedom to flourish and live with dignity. It means the freedom to care for ourselves and others, to participate in a vibrant democracy, to be healthy and safe from harm, and to live on a healthy planet and in a welcoming country.  

Season four of the Just Politics podcast continues last season’s focus on protecting and expanding democracy in the United States but dives into the particular context of the 2024 election—and the freedoms at stake.  

For the season four kickoff episode, podcast hosts (and NETWORK staff members) Joan Neal, Colin Martinez Longmore, and Sister Eilis McCulloh, H.M. are joined by Katherine Stewart—an investigative journalist whose work focuses on religious nationalism and the separation of church and state, and the author of The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism (Bloomsbury). Stewart lays out for listeners some of the freedoms on the line in this election, the dangers of Christian nationalism and right-wing extremism, and some concrete ways in which we all can pitch in to save democracy this election year.  

NETWORK Executive Director Mary Novak then joins our hosts to unpack Stewart’s interview and explore how some coalitions of people of faith are working together to reject the rise of Christian nationalism and insist on the kind of faith-in-politics that actually serves the common good.  

Join Just Politics this season as we explore how we can expand our freedoms and vote for a future where everyone thrives—no exceptions—in this election and beyond.

As you listen, please be aware that NETWORK Advocates is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to advancing the principles of Catholic social justice and does not endorse or oppose any candidate or party in the upcoming election.

Additional Resources:  

Episode Transcript:

Sr. Eilis McCulloh, HM: Welcome back to Season 4 of Just Politics! I’m Sister Eilis McCulloh.

Colin Martinez Longmore: I’m Colin Martinez Longmore.

Joan Neal: And I’m Joan Neal.

Colin: We’re glad to have you back with us for some great conversations at the intersection of politics and Catholic Social Justice.

Joan: Just as last season focused on preserving, protecting, and expanding U.S. democracy, our new season plays out against the backdrop of a truly consequential election that has many people wondering – and worrying — about all that is on the line for the future of this country.

Eilis: And here at NETWORK we are very clear about that: This year we VOTE OUR FUTURE, which is also the name of NETWORK’s election education campaign.

Colin: At the heart of this campaign is something we all hold dear, and it’s what’s at stake this year: our freedoms.

Joan: That’s right, Colin. We can’t take our freedoms for granted. Every day in our politics, we see aggressive movement by political forces and actors who seek to curtail the freedom of people who don’t look them, or think like them. That’s why NETWORK supports multi-issue voting, which takes into account the framework of freedoms in the Equally Sacred Checklist, NETWORK’s primary election education resource.

Eilis: At NETWORK, we believe that all people of faith and goodwill have the power to make a difference in this country by showing that freedom belongs to all people, and not just a select few.

Colin: We know that Catholic Social Teaching offers a vision of a world where everyone has what they need to flourish and live in true freedom. As Pope Francis says, “The only future worth building includes everyone.”

Joan: And living into these freedoms so often starts with exercising one’s own freedom to participate in democracy.

Eilis: That’s exactly what Baylee Fingerhut told us. She’s a college student and member of NETWORK’s Young Advocates Leadership Lab. She said,

Baylee Fingerhut: “It’s important, if we want to have things like dignity of health, equity, equality, justice, we need to participate in democracy. Democracy is like the guardrail for all of that to happen.”

Eilis: To kick off our fourth season, Colin spoke with journalist Katherine Stewart. She specializes in Christian nationalism in our politics and wrote “The Power Worshippers.” This book was adapted into the Rob Reiner-produced film, “God and Country,” about the threats to our freedoms posed by Christian nationalism.

Joan: Let’s listen to their conversation!

Colin: Katherine Stewart, thank you for joining us at Just Politics.

Katherine Stewart: It’s great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Colin: To start, can you just share a little bit about yourself with our listeners?

Katherine: I’m a journalist, investigative journalist, and author. My latest book is The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism. It’s my second book on this topic. And I have a forthcoming book in February 2025 on a very much related topic as well.

Colin: Excellent. And we’re excited to dive into this topic because it’s something that NETWORK is keenly aware of and something that we think is really important for this moment.

We know that most of us enjoy living in a pluralistic country that has freedoms to take care of ourselves and our family, to participate in a diverse and vibrant democracy, to live in welcoming communities. But in your book that you mentioned, it makes it clear that there are folks that don’t share those same wants necessarily. Oftentimes, those folks are people that are in power in Congress. Can you share with our listeners a sense of what it means that there’s this movement of people, a lot of them with power, that don’t value these kinds of things?

Katherine: Yeah, thanks so much. That’s a really terrific question. I think when we’re talking about freedom, we can refer to FDR’s four freedoms. He spoke about the freedom of speech, the freedom of worship, the freedom from want, and the freedom from fear.

So first, I think we stand to lose our freedom of speech because this is a movement that has made clear they want to go after journalists who criticize them or members of the political opposition. They want to actually take away certain people’s right to vote or downgrade the legitimacy of their votes. Trump has frankly made clear that he’s willing to create the permission structure for vigilante mobs that could silence people. He has promised to fire civil servants in the federal government if they have the wrong views.

So, this is a movement whose representatives talk a lot of high talk about cancel culture and free speech. But I think those of us who are really paying attention know that they’re really just talking about free speech of a certain type. If you conform to their political vision, then they want you to be free to speak. And if you don’t, they don’t want you to have those freedoms. When they talk about cancel culture, they’re really only talking about canceling people who conform to their political agenda.

We can also look at the freedom to worship. I mean, this is a movement that’s trying to build an America where only approved versions of religion are privileged. So, you know, if you want to get government funding and you want to get ahead, you need to show you are a conservative Christian of a certain type. As we know, you know, Christianity is incredibly diverse. And they sort of call anyone who doesn’t conform to that, those correct visions, a sort of “woke” or whatever.

I want to talk for a minute about freedom from want. Look, this is a movement that calls anyone to the left of them a socialist or a communist, and that’s absolutely not true. But we need to remember that this movement is not offering bread, really. They’re offering circuses. They’re talking about lowering taxes on very rich people, cutting back on public spending for services and public schools, and diverting some of that money to religious organizations, conservative religious organizations. They talk a good game about family values, but they’re driving support for policies that are actually making it so much harder for so many American families to succeed.

And then I think the freedom from fear is something we should really focus on. I mean, if you’re a woman and you want to get pregnant and have a baby, I think you should be afraid right now because they’re talking about monitoring your pregnancy, ensuring you go through it, even in cases of gross fetal abnormality or cases where it’s going to harm your health or even put your life in danger. They’re talking about creating databases to track pregnancies, stopping pregnant women from crossing borders. You know, I’m very lucky to have two children. In between them, I had a couple of miscarriages, as many of them do, and one of them actually imperiled my life. And my miscarriage care was delayed. I nearly died, as a consequence of that delayed miscarriage care. And women across America are suffering right now, because they’re not getting the care that they need to save their lives and preserve their health. So I think there are a lot of freedoms we should really be concerned about, but those four are some of the most critical.

Colin: Thank you so much just for sharing that with us as well, and how dire the stakes are really. At NETWORK, we talk a lot about white Christian nationalism and the dangers that it poses to not just individuals, but our church and then our country as well.

A term that stands out when I think about your work is the term theocracy, because it feels very jarring for me to hear that and to talk about this movement in this way of calling it a theocracy. But also it’s very accurate in capturing the end goal of what this movement is. What are some warning signs that a society might be moving towards a more theocratic form of government?

Katherine: Well, I think that, first of all, this is a movement that’s very focused on the courts. You know, in advance of the 2016 election. The way I do a lot of my research is I go to right-wing conferences and strategy gatherings, because I feel like you don’t really know what’s going on unless you’re in the room. And they’re very clear about what they want to do. And they, you know, would stand up there and some of the representatives would say, this election is about “judges, judges, judges,” because they know very well that if you can capture the courts, you can impose a radically unpopular agenda on the country. A leader like Leonard Leo, who was the head of the Federalist Society and has been a real money man of the religious right and has played a really critical role in building this movement, he realized a long time ago that the policies he wanted for our country were really unpopular. The only way he was going to achieve them is to capture the courts.

So I think looking at the composition of today’s Supreme Court right now, and some of the decisions that they’re handing down in the economic realm in terms of personal freedoms and some of the cases that they have sort of, you know, nodded at—not taken on yet perhaps, but nodded at in their commentary and other decisions—shows us where we could head in terms of the theocratic agenda.

I don’t think we’re going to end up with something like “The Handmaid’s Tale.” I think we can look more to authoritarian governments like Turkey under Erdogan or Hungary under Viktor Orban or Russia’s Putin—Putin’s Russia, I should say—where there’s sort of theocracies in a fake sense. There’s an approved version of religion, the leaders bind themselves tightly in order to create this sort of appearance of theocracy, and attempt to impose religious values through the law. 

But they’re more accurately described as, say, cronyistic kleptocracies, where, you know, if you’re in favor with the leader, you’re going to get favorable contracts and favorable treatment. And if you’re a member of the political opposition, there’s absolute suppression of free speech and often persecution of political opposition. These leaders bind themselves tightly to conservative religious figures in their own countries in order to divide their own populations and create this more authoritarian and strict, more dictatorial, form of political power. They’re using it to guard against any investigations of their own corruption and against any investigation of abuses they may be perpetrating against their own people.

Colin:  I love that you mentioned these examples from other countries as well, because I feel like there’s a feeling in our country that this can’t happen here or that somehow we’ve progressed too far for us to slide back into something more regressive. But we know that it happened before. And I’m curious if there’s been examples of times in our own country when our freedoms have been given up because that line between religion and government has been erased.

Katherine: Well, we can look to the era of slavery to see how pro-slavery theologians and moneyed interests used the Bible in order to justify this absolute oppression against their fellow human beings, to justify hierarchies, to say they’re ordained by God.

And frankly, I do think that we’re facing a crisis, the likes of which we haven’t seen since the Civil War. I think that we can look to a document like Project 2025, which makes all of these things abundantly clear. Look, every single chapter, or nearly every chapter, begins and ends with how we’re going to create and impose supposedly Christian values on the country. So even the labor secretary doesn’t start off talking about wages or collective bargaining or rights for the workforce—creating a more just economic environment—he talks about how he’s going to make the American workforce behave according to his idea of Christian norms.

What they’ve also made clear is they want to turn the federal workforce from a professional service that serves the people, works for the people, which they deride as a, quote, “administrative state.” And they want to replace it with a thoroughly partisan, essentially one-party strike force that will serve the favored political party and its leader. And that sort of follows a kind of authoritarian model.

I think that the guardrails of the Republican Party have frankly fallen away and it’s really the extremists setting the agenda. And that’s a shame, because I think our country functions best when we have two functioning political parties that can engage in the politics of give and take and the art of compromise in order to serve the people. But that’s really not where we’re at today, unfortunately.

Colin: Yeah, definitely. And when I hear you share that, the worry that comes to mind for me is thinking of not just the folks in power, but that there are people who are willing to move into that, who are willing to vote away their freedoms for that. And I’m thinking of just something as simple as family members who are jaded with our political system and are saying, “you know what, it’s fine. Let’s bring these, you know, supposed Christian values back in and change up our government,” to places like in El Salvador where folks are willing to vote for someone who is actively dismantling their own democracy because of what he’s promising them. So I’m curious how you see the people allowing that to happen. Not just the folks in power, but folks that are willing to vote for that, and what can be done about that.

Katherine: I think we can’t underestimate the role of disinformation and conspiracism in our time. You have 30 to 40 percent of the American electorate believing that the 2020 elections were stolen, that Trump is really spectacular, that his 91 felony counts across four criminal cases is nothing more than political persecution.

So, you know, one really essential component of the Christian nationalist movement is a kind of, I would say, messaging and propagandist fear that constantly props up Trump as a kind of wonderful strongman who’s going to break the rules because the rules are broken and only a tough guy can save us.

Unfortunately, this is a movement that always accuses the left of playing identity politics. But I think they play identity politics harder. It’s Christian nationalism, a kind of exclusionary religious nationalism. It’s about who gets to properly belong in the country and who doesn’t. They claim that we’re facing an absolute apocalypse. There’s a sense of catastrophism. The woke left is running wild and they’re all a bunch of communists or they even say they’re under the control of Satan. And, you know, breaking the rules is necessary in order to save the Republic. And that’s really sad to me.

You know, I think like most Americans, I assumed that as a country we would never give up our democratic heritage, you know, we’re an essentially democratic country. I thought it would be unthinkable that we would end up a bit like Argentina, say under Peron, which was actually a socialist dictatorship or what followed was a series of military dictatorships that killed off much of the opposition. But I think a lot of Americans were raised to think that it can’t happen here. And in an earlier era, I thought it couldn’t happen here, but I think that’s foolish. I think we really are facing a crisis of our democracy. And it’s really time for everybody who cares about the common good and cares about our democracy to step up and do what we can to defend it.

Colin: 100% agree. I’m curious how you see then, zooming in at like an individual level, how can, let’s say individuals, engage in constructive dialogue with folks that maybe hold these differing religious and political views that are significantly different from their own, particularly when those views are rooted in religious nationalism? What do you think are ways that folks can continue to engage in that dialogue so it doesn’t just fall apart?

Katherine: That’s a great question! I think it’s the question that everybody asks. We certainly ask this within our own family. We all have very politically diverse families, as many of us do. Speaking personally, I do.

And I think it’s really important to try to find some common ground. I think that for many of us, we actually want the same things. We just have really different ideas about how to get there, the things we all care about. And so try to find some common ground and then try to break through this sort of disinformation bubble and try and break through that kind of identity politics, to be honest, and remind folks that we’re all Americans and we can respect one another and respect one another’s differences, but still have a society that works for all of us.

And I do believe that those conversations can be really fruitful. But I also think it’s important to engage people who are politically disengaged, tell them why democracy matters, tell them what’s at stake, tell them our democracy is theirs if we can keep it.

It’s really important to not just vote yourself—and not just at the top of the ticket, but down ballot–but also to make sure that others in your circle are voting as well. Volunteer to babysit for that lady who’s got young kids so she can go to the polls. Volunteer to drive the elderly folks in your neighborhood to the polls so that they can cast their vote. So I have this idea that if we all just do a little more than we did last time, we could actually make a real difference.

I also want to add that there are no shortages of avenues for engagement. It’s really important to protect the vote, to get involved in initiatives that resonate with your values, whether it’s engaging people at your church or getting involved in different organizations that are attempting to protect our democracy. So I think that there are things we can do as individuals, but there are things we can really only do when we join together with others.

Colin: What role do you see people of faith, people of goodwill, the Catholic Church in general… what role do you see them playing in countering or even contributing to this movement?

Katherine: I think that people of faith are some of the most vital voices who can speak in opposition to this movement. Look, most Americans, religious and non-religious alike, reject the politics of conquest and division that this movement represents. It’s really important to stand up and speak to our values, our religious values, and show how the movement to destroy democracy is actually in opposition to the values that many of us hold dear.

Colin: That’s great, thank you. Moving onto our final question, what are some things that give you hope in this challenging landscape?

Katherine:  I think of the words of my friend, the Reverend Kelly Brown Douglas, who said “The hope is in the struggle.” She has written about her ancestors who fought for freedom, even though they would never have it themselves. They were enslaved. And they fought for freedom for people they would never see, and never know.  And their hope was in the struggle. I think about episodes of the American past, unjust episodes where people fought for a better world even though they knew they would never experience that themselves. And then I think about the privileges that we have today: we still have freedom of speech, we still have freedom to act, we still have freedom to vote. We should defend these freedoms while we can.

Colin: Thank you so much for those words and that reminder of the long-term work that we’re all called to. Katherine, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your insight on this important issue.

Katherine: Thank you so much.

Colin: Speaking with Katherine was eye-opening, to say the least. Oftentimes when we talk about threats to democracy, it feels like an abstract and unrelatable thing. But she really drove home the implications of what it means to lose our freedoms.

Eilis: And to help us connect our conversation with Katherine Stewart to the work we’ve engaging in here at NETWORK, we’re excited to bring back our own executive director, Mary J. Novak, to the conversation.

Joan Neal: Mary, thank you for being with us.

Mary Novak: Thank you, Joan. It’s always good to be with you, my beloved colleagues.

Joan: So Mary, when you listen to Katherine Stewart’s talk about the relationship of different freedoms and threats to democracy, what stands out for you?

Mary: Well, I love that Katherine started with FDR’s four freedoms: the freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear. Those freedoms formed the foundation of an era in world history in which an unprecedented number of people have benefited from living in free democracies.

And we see that tradition continued in things like Senator Bob Casey’s policy plan, Five Freedoms for America’s Children — that is, freedom to be healthy, freedom to be economically secure, freedom to learn, freedom from hunger, and freedom to be safe from harm.

And in NETWORK’s election education campaign this year, we have embraced six freedoms as the core of our multi-issue voting platform. And what is really exciting is that in conversation with communities across the country, when we roll this out, people start thinking about more freedoms. And thus, the number of freedoms keeps growing.

This notion of expanding freedom as a way of promoting human flourishing is also deeply attuned to the Catholic teaching on human dignity. And it reflects the journey that the U.S. has made over a quarter millennium, from a fledgling republic that fell gravely short of its own stated ideals, with slavery and Native American genocide, moving to a pluralistic, multiracial, multiethnic, multifaith, inclusive democracy that we have committed to becoming just in the last 60 years.

So freedom keeps expanding to Black people, to women, to people living differently abled, to everyone in the LGBTQ+ community. And this is the trajectory we are caught up in today. But to continue it, it requires all of us to keep bending that arc toward justice.

Joan: As you know Mary, this year, as part of NETWORK’s election education campaign, Vote Our Future, we’ve updated our Equally Sacred Checklist, which is our guide to the important issues we face in the election. And we frame these issues as freedoms: freedom to be healthy, freedom to care for oneself and one’s family, freedom to live on a healthy planet, freedom from harm, and freedom to participate in a vibrant democracy, and freedom to live in a welcoming country that values human rights.

When you put these all together, it paints a vivid picture of the progress our world has made, but also how much ground we still have to cover, and how much we stand to lose. What are your thoughts here?

Mary: Well, talking about protecting democracy, what we have found is that it really does not come to life for most people. It just doesn’t. But when you start to enumerate the freedoms we associate with democracy, that has a completely different story. It becomes real for people, when you talk about those freedoms, Joan, that you just listed, and what we can do with them. Like, vote, afford your house payment, get medical care, escape crushing debt, or simply to live in peace and safety.

Now, talking about it and making it real are two different things. So as Katherine made clear, the threats from people who want to undo this progress–to ensure rights to only a small privileged few–that threat is real, and all too present in our politics today. But NETWORK’s 2024 Vote Our Future campaign, which is a nonpartisan voter education effort, really seeks to spell out the power of each person’s vote – especially when you consider the range of issues and freedoms at play today. The ones you enumerated, Joan.

People do not live single-issue lives. And while aspects of our political discourse today are certainly scary, they are not talking about what has to be inevitable. Not if we all show up and choose solidarity over division, exclusion, and hatred.

We started to see this in the 2022 election. People showed up, right? We can do it again. The tagline for NETWORK’s Vote Our Future campaign says it all: “Everyone thrives. No exceptions!”

Joan: So Mary, Colin asked Katherine about people who stopped believing in the system, who think “burn it all down” is an acceptable option. What can we even say to someone who thinks that?

Mary: Well Joan, let’s first acknowledge that there are folks for whom the system has never worked, and who believe that if we start all over from the beginning, we can create a more equal society.

But as I have just explained, we are moving to expand our freedoms every day, so that no one is excluded. So I would ask, when I hear this question, Is our system really beyond saving? Or, is it actively under attack from people who only want democracy to work for them?

We saw a lot of this last year with the constant efforts to force a government shutdown over proposed cuts to human needs programs. Those cuts would have limited millions of people’s access to health care, housing, and food. What we’re witnessing is a willful, intentional harm of a good, if imperfect, system that is designed to help millions of people flourish in freedom. And that’s precisely why some in power are trying to break it.

And lastly, we can never forget that someone wants you and me to feel this way. When we are tempted to be cynical or to despair or to just give up, that is no accident. We have so many channels of information around us and many of us are overcome and dominated by voices who just want to exhaust us, you and me, to get us thinking that there is no making it better, ever. And ultimately, they are making a cynical bet that you and I will do the wrong thing—either for selfish reasons or simply out of apathy and exhaustion.

And it is a challenge to overcome all of that, to shake off the feelings of helplessness and to move into action. But that is exactly what we need to do together.

Joan: That’s right. Solidarity really matters. And, you know, this is a democratic republic and democracy comes from the people, means the people, and it’s the people who have the power and we should never forget that.

So one other question, Mary: what about the role of people of faith? Something else that Colin asked Katherine about. You know, NETWORK, and particularly you and I, have been really greatly engaged with other partners in the faith community and other secular partners. But particularly what about the faith community and people of faith? What can we do to help in this situation?

Mary: That’s a good question, Joan, and I’m going to answer it two ways.

So first, at NETWORK, being people of faith, this is core to our identity, right? NETWORK has a track record of over 50 years of educating, organizing people of faith and goodwill to engage in the work of pushing for policy changes that expand people’s freedoms and build up the common good.

So people of faith are so critical, especially in moments like these. Our advocacy presents a stark and authentic counter to the ugly lie of Christian nationalism, especially in its white Christian nationalistic form. Time and again, people of faith have exemplified what it means to work for the common good as an integral part of living the gospel.

And organized people of faith truly can make a difference. We know that. When faith leaders authentically claim freedom in their movements, in our movements, that is how social change has happened and will continue to happen in this country. And I just feel honored to be doing this with all of you and our expanded NETWORK community.

But also, as you well know, Joan—because we’re doing this work very much together, you and I—that in addition to NETWORK’s 2024 Vote Our Future campaign, NETWORK is coming together with other faith groups in their work, which now becomes our work, to overcome the resistance to the growing multiracial, multiethnic, multifaith, pluralistic democracy. This growing that we are doing is causing a major pushback, right? So it’s meaning that those of us who are similarly situated and conscious are coming together.

So I’m going to name two of these. And there’s more approaches that you and I are receiving every week in ways that I don’t think I have experienced since the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, it’s just quite exciting, and I know I feel more comforted knowing I’m doing this not just with my colleagues at NETWORK, but across the groups.

So the first one I will mention is Faiths United to Save Democracy, which is a nonpartisan, multiracial, multifaith, multi-generational voter protection campaign, rooted in the belief that everyone is made in the image of God and deserves the freedom to vote. And it is a campaign to overcome the recent assault on democracy making it more difficult for voters who are low-income, Black and Brown, elderly, students, and differently-abled folks. It’s to overcome the resistance to their exercise of their sacred right to vote. The Faiths United to Save Democracy is preparing ordained and lay faith leaders as trusted voices to serve as poll chaplains and peacekeepers in the upcoming election. So check it out at TurnOutSunday.com.

The second one I will mention is the coming together of faith leaders in a groundbreaking initiative aimed at guiding Christians of diverse backgrounds, traditions, and political affiliations towards a robust yet balanced approach to civic engagement. So Joan, you’ve been instrumental in this campaign with Sojourners, in collaboration with 31 other esteemed partner organizations. And it was unveiled two weeks ago. It’s called A Call to Civic Discipleship. And it illuminates pathways for Christians to navigate politics and civic affairs in alignment with core biblical values, such as civility, truthfulness, empathy, and integrity. And so you can learn more about that if you go to sojo.net/civicdiscipleship.

And more of this is coming as we unite for our freedoms–freedoms for everyone, no exception.

Joan: Exactly. That’s what Pope Francis has told us. Well, Mary, thank you so much for joining us today and for highlighting how our freedoms matter and how they are on the line during this run up to the election. But even beyond that, we have learned that we must fight for freedom. Every generation has their challenge, and this is ours.

So, thanks so much for all that you are doing and all that we are doing together as NETWORK to stand up and to claim our power and to move into the protection of our democracy.

Joan: So there you have it. Our freedoms, the hallmark of democracy, are on the line this year. We hope you will join us in the coming weeks for interviews with Rep. Bonnie Watson-Coleman, Rev. Jim Wallis, and exciting new faces in the areas of political activism and climate justice, including Drake Starling, NETWORK’s new climate justice advocate.

Colin: It’s going to be an interesting and exciting season. So tune in and join the conversation!

Eilis: We hope you’ll join us next week for another episode. You can follow along for updates, livestreams, and any bonus content on our social media accounts. Follow us at @NETWORK_Lobby. Thanks for joining us.